Interview with Bereket Simon, Ethiopian minister for information and chairperson for the election committee for the EPRDF 17 June 2005

Could you clarify how many people have been arrested in Addis Ababa and in other parts of the country?

I cannot give you the exact numbers at this point because I don't look into the exact figures. But I assure you, given the circumstances that were created last Monday up to Thursday, especially during the riot that broke out all over Addis on Wednesday, there were about 3,000 people detained out of which more than 600 have been released so far. And probably less than 30 per cent of these people will basically be charged with the facts that so far the policemen have arrived at. The general assumption tells them that the people who are going to be charged with these violent crimes or violent actions that were exhibited on Wednesday and prior to it will be around 30 per cent of the detained.

So that was 3,000 detained in Addis. What about the rest of the country?

Well in the rest of the country I can assure you there are not too many people. Because there was no significant violence taking place in other parts of the country. For sure there might be people who might have been arrested for criminal activities but it only numbers in tens.

So 336 people were released on Wednesday night into Meskel Square - is that right?

Yeah, this morning as well, another 300-400 people were released.

Why have some people been released and some are still detained?

Well, you know, this event took place in a very rapid way and when the protesters went on rampaging the city, the police had to make sure that a stop was made to it. And, taking this into account, they had to isolate the rioters and people who have engaged in destructive activities and they took them because – it was something like a containment activity taken by the police. Given the investigative capacity of the police we can not say that all these cases will be finalised within a day or two. So…

I thought people in Ethiopia could only be held before they were charged for 48 hours. Have these people still in custody been charged or will they go to court? What is the procedure?

It is true that police in Ethiopia, under normal circumstances, have the responsibility to go to the courts and get the permits to detain people. This was a violence that broke out. It happened in the streets. It was a demonstration that defied the orders of the government on demonstrations bans and went on rampaging and crashing property and disrupting movements. So the government had to contain this spread of violence. And you can not go to the courts when violence is spreading in the city. The first thing they have to do is pre-empt it – pre-empt it by detaining people or by taking the necessary action. And then you go to the courts and bring charges regarding these people. Now what the police are doing is going to the courts and securing the permits to bring people to justice. Of course they are releasing people on advice, on counselling, especially those people who committed minor crimes who were engaged in not too big subversive activities. They have also released without anything those who have not been found guilty. We do not need to go to the courts to get permits in order to detain these people in order to keep them longer than they have stayed for. So we are trying to put it back on rail and pursue it the legal way.

So how long will it take for these 2,500 people to go through the courts – to either be put in jail or to be freed?

Well, for instance, I can assure you about 500 which we believed were seriously engaged in the criminal activities have been presented to the court, and depending on the efficiency of the courts we will make sure whether these people will be detained for further investigations or will be released on bail. So the police are doing their best and probably, in two or three days time, the police will finalise all the legal procedures.

And will any more people on top of this 700 be released?

Definitely. As I have told you, although the police has ample evidence regarding most of the detained people, they were telling me that they will start differentiating between the serious and the light offences. So that those who are accused of light offences will be released either on bail or on advice and counselling basis. So most of them will be released, I assure you.

What impact do you think the arrests and the violence and the killings will have on Ethiopia's relationship with the international community?

You know, if one has to judge Ethiopia on what it deserves, it needs to look into the whole picture, the whole range of pictures. Coming here to look at some isolated incidents will not give the right picture. You can say that for the last 14 years, Ethiopia has changed a lot and in the right direction. We have democratised the country. We have introduced the free market economy system. We have arranged a federal system of administration. We have decentralised power. The government has delivered on most of its promises and we have also been fighting corruption. So, in many respects, the track record of this government indicates that this country is moving in the right direction. And, if you look into this year's election, the run up to the election and the polling day activities and performances were superb. The Carter Center has witnessed that the process at and before the election was good. The same witness has been given by the European Union observation mission by African Union observers as well and others as well. But, unfortunately, this was an uphill fight that was conducted, on the one hand by the ruling party which tried to ensure a democratic consummation of the process and the opposition forces who were bent on pursuing this destructive avenue. The opposition have been declaring time and again that they are not participating to win majority seats and run government. Because they felt winning the majority will force them to implement the constitution that was devised by the ruling party. And they felt that they will implement the ruling party's programme. So they were opting for a complete unconstitutional change of the whole process. For this reason they wanted to discredit the whole election process. They wanted to incite violence and bring the government to its knee. And then that was not possible because the whole process denied them such a chance. And then it was after the election was conducted and the results were being posted that they started to tell the people that fraud had been conducted by the ruling party. This unfortunately brought some of the urban areas, where nobody can say there was fraud, to conclude or reach an unwarranted conclusion that somewhere else the election was rigged. And after feeding all this wrong information to the public, they incited violence. And the government had to discharge its responsibility of maintaining law and order. And for this reason, it has taken the measure that were intended to make a stop to the violence that was initiated by the CUD especially. Definitely we have seen unwanted loss of life which we regret. Of course, this is the making of the opposition parties because there was a ban on demonstrations and they have defied that. Every legal means was put in place. They have told the rioters that the legal means are not going to work before they even test it in practice. So basically, it was the making of the opposition. And I feel this doesn't indicate what this country stands for in terms of democracy and development.

But the international community is not very happy. Hilary Benn [The UK's Secretary of State for International Development] announced he was going to freeze aid to Ethiopia.

We are not happy that people have died. We are not happy as well that Ethiopians are being detained, some of them for reasons they don't stand genuinely for. But this is a country that needs to move forward, that needs to guard itself from anarchy taking it over. Otherwise, if you allow violence and anarchy to reign in this country, probably the result or the outcome which we have managed to avert would take place. And that, definitely, I assure you, would be very, very, very disastrous and I don't think one can contemplate such kind of disasters to happen here.

But do you not think that on Wednesday when police opened fire and 36 people were killed, that that damaged Ethiopia's reputation which has been very good internationally?

Well, I definitely believe that it will tarnish the image of the country. But, what was the alternative? Let's look at it. The alternative was strife between the different nationalities of Ethiopia which might have made the Rwandan genocide look like childsplay. This was the alternative. If you allow people who defy law and order, take matters into their own hands and government sits idly, not discharging its responsibility of maintaining law and order, anybody who feels they are capable of taking matters into their own hands will reign over society and that will definitely bring the whole Ethiopian society into turmoil. This is what the government wanted to avoid. And I think one needs to balance. In the first place this is an isolated incident. Secondly, the alternative to this would have been much more disastrous where you might find millions or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands perishing within the coming days and months. And you can not have Ethiopia in this context. So, I think we shouldn't look into a single picture and conclude. We need to look into the whole process – what this country is trying to do. We're moving forward but unfortunately, in this very short period of time, some mishaps have occurred in this country. We definitely are ready to investigate it and we are definitely sure that we will come up with the legal measures based on the results of the investigation. Nevertheless I don’t think that Ethiopia deserves to be judged by this isolated event. People need to look into the larger picture and I think we need to get the understanding of the developed world and the Ethiopian people as well.

So you just talked about an investigation into these events. Who will conduct this investigation? Will it be independent? Will it be conducted by the international community? What would you like to see happen?

You know, this is a democratic system. At least, although this is an emerging democracy, we are trying to put in place all the institutional and legal mechanisms to make investigations, come up with recommendations based on the results of the investigation. Let me give you two or three examples. There were some incidents in the early days of this government where a clash between opposition forces and police took place. This was during the transitional period. The Parliament ordered an investigation and a special investigation committee was organised by the Parliament, independent of the executive branch of parliament. It came up with this result and the parliament decided the measures that were commensurate with the results of the investigation. Last year, during the Gambela crisis, once again the Parliament took the initiative and ordered an investigation into the case. Definitely, it formed an independent inquiry team composed of the Supreme Court's president and members of the civil society, well known personalities in Ethiopia, religious and other personalities. They went there, investigated the whole case, came up with reports and as per the reports, the government has taken the necessary measures. Those army members who have been found guilty of the crime, they have faced the court. So, we have built a system where an independent system, ordered by the parliament, takes place and these independent bodies report back to the Parliament. And based on the findings and recommendations of these inquiry teams, the government takes action. So, we are not saying different, extra-legal institutions must be set up. We need to make sure that the system has an inbuilt mechanism to investigate and redress problems. That's what we are trying to do.

So this will be an independent investigation led by the parliament?

I am saying there will be an investigation into it. The normal procedures, the normal way of doing things, based on our experience, will take place.

Do you know when this will start?

Well, I am not sure at this point. But definitely the government will make sure the right measures will be taken.

So, now, 10 days has passed since the violence. Looking back, do you think it was still right for the police to go in there with guns and to shoot people who were armed with stones?

Well, I was trying to avoid describing an incident. Let me give you the whole picture. First, we had a very democratic election. And all of the parties had an obligation to believe in this democratic process and accept the verdict of the people as per the official results. And if any one of them has complaints or misgivings about some of the results or the whole results for that matter, they could follow all the legal procedures. They could ask to be heard and to get a chance for an investigation. They can go to the courts if need be. These are the legal mechanisms that are put in place. The opposition, having known this, were not ready to abide by this modus operandi and they opted for violence. And through that violence they were aiming to overthrow a legally formed government. So what can a government do when one defies every legal and peaceful means and resorts to violence? I think the government has an obligation to protect society. An obligation to protect the legitimately constituted government. Otherwise, you know, any group who feels he can not satisfy his needs through the legal means will opt for the violent way of solving things. This is democracy. This is capitalism. I don't think any country will allow its legitimately formed government to be overthrown by force. So I think I can assure you that the police did the right thing, not in terms of the killings but in terms of protecting a legitimately formed government. I know for sure this is a poor country. We have little equipment and anti-riot police which for the future we need to strengthen. But we have tried to control it using these anti-riot police. Nevertheless, the anti-riot police were overwhelmed by the onslaught that happened to them. If the anti-riot police are lost in this confrontation, then the whole thing will get out of hand and police had to control it. I assure you the government is not interested in such killings. We have a clear stand. Everybody has a right to life. We believe in it. No matter what the situation is, we would basically guide ourselves based on this principle of our constitution. But there is also another side of the story. If these people, the protesters, those who took matters into their own hands, were allowed to reign over this society, the result would have been much more disastrous.

Just to pin down the specific question about guns. Why was deadly force allowed when you could have used water canons or tear gas?

We have used that, I assure you. We have used that. For instance, if you take Monday. On Monday, some university students blocked the main gate and they refused to allow people to move in and out of the campus. And the government, the police force, sent the anti-riot police. And there was no incident in containing these kinds of violent measures taken by the students. On Tuesday, a college in the centre of the city broke out in violence and the police went there. Students, passers-by, unemployed, what have you, assaulted police. Police were retreating. This was an ominous thing. When police start retreating in the face of such assaults, then that would bring the whole society to its knee. Because if the police can not protect itself, then retreats in the face of such assaults, that will embolden the rioters. They will take the whole city. We had such an experience before four years. We had an experience where we have seen the office for school-leaving exams was burned down and years of documents of students were wiped out. A big telecommunications infrastructure was burned down to earth. Many buses were burned down. Gold shops were entered and looted. That has happened. We know it. If you don't control such riots, civilian life will be disrupted. Not only that, especially with the emboldened nature of the protesters, where the opposition have told them that Kofi Annan had come to Ethiopia and told the Prime Minister Meles Zenawi not to shoot a single bullet, or that Mike Honda, the US Congressman, did the same thing. And all these things had added up to create the agitated mood in which the protesters found themselves. So they were not ready to be contained by the anti-riot police. This is one thing. Secondly, in many places it erupted at the same time. So you can not contain, using a limited number of anti-riot police, such violence taking place in many place in many parts at the same time. They tried one. When they contain it, another erupts. And when you send them, the other one flares again. This was the situation. So this was the situation where we found ourselves on that day. It was unfortunate there was the killing but this is the situation.

I am still not sure why guns were necessary and not tear gas or water canons.

Well tear gas and water canons were used.

When?

During that day. We used them. But the enormity and the overwhelming power of the protesters was not there to be stopped by tear gas. We have used it here in the schools. We have used it somewhere else. We have used it during that day. But to no avail. So the enormity and the overwhelming nature of the protesters was the reason to… And we need to understand there is unemployment, which we have been trying to tackle. And unemployment is a curse on society. And when people are told that they can loot and get rich in this type of occasions, the unemployed can become agitated and they will listen and be guided by false promises and expectations.

Thank you.